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Re: Wrapping long lines (Was Re: FAQ update suggestion for "I'm having basic problems with find. Why?")


On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, William Blunn wrote:

> Christopher Faylor quoted Igor Pechtchanski:
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 03:56:49PM -0400, Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> > >I've already explained why I don't think format=flowed is appropriate
> > >for this list (in particular, long command lines will also be wrapped
> > >if it ever were to be accepted).
>
> "Long command lines will also be wrapped..."
>
> I would contend that there is an issue of scale here.
>
> [Some percentage analysis snipped]
>
> People reading the message, who *do* need to use the command line will
> see the command line hit the edge of the window, and continue on the
> next line.  Doing copy-and-paste on the entire (line-wrapped) command
> line from the browser window will give you a (clipboard) object with
> *no* linebreaks in it.  This is true for every browser I have ever seen.
>
> [snip]
>
> There will inevitably be some people who are terminally stupid and will
> assume that they can use advanced techniques without having acquired the
> necessary prerequisite background knowledge. They may either not see the
> wrapped portion of the command line, or will not know that you mustn't
> press enter/return in the middle of a command line.

I think you're making an assumption here about the audience of this list.
Over the years, it seems that most of the time a long command line (or a
series of long command lines) was needed in a message was when a
reasonably clueless person (not even subscribed to the list) requested
help.  So, the proportion of messages with long command lines with respect
to people who are supposed to use those command lines is much higher than
you estimated.

> (The last part is not completely true, because in certain shells you can
> escape newlines and include them in your command line.)

This also assumes that people who are too stupid to know that you can't
press "Enter" in the middle of a command line will know how to quote in
the shell.  Ha!

A couple of other points:

Sometimes it's not even possible to know, visually, whether the command is
ended or continued.

Command lines are just an example.  Another example of when using long
unterminated lines is justified is program output, in particular make or
gcc.  Reading those in flowed format is just excruciating.

> [snip]
>
> Think of it this way:  If we had already accepted that the web archive
> system wrapped flowed text, and someone came up arguing that it should
> not "because it breaks long command lines", would they be given the time
> of day?
>
> I think not.  I think the counter argument would be "Yes we know it
> makes the occasional command-line appear line-wrapped, but that is a
> nano-issue compared to the downside which is that it will mess up the
> display for all the flowed messages, which is a far bigger issue."

I think you're arguing against yourself here. :-)  The argument above is
that "once something is established and set up, most requests to change it
will be viewed with suspicion, and rarely followed".  But doesn't this
exactly reflect the current situation?

In summary, most mailing lists have netiquette rules and customs.  Where
they come from, be it from historical reasons, from necessity, from a
majority vote by the founders, or just from a whim of the list moderator,
is irrelevant.  Once those rules are established, they are very hard to
change from the outside.  Most subscribers will adhere to those customs.
Those that don't will see an occasional chiding by those who prefer the
customs to be adhered to.  Quoting an old Russian saying, "One doesn't
come to a remote monastery with his own code of rules".  Or, in a more
accepted phrasing, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".
	Igor
-- 
				http://cs.nyu.edu/~pechtcha/
      |\      _,,,---,,_		pechtcha@cs.nyu.edu
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_		igor@watson.ibm.com
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski, Ph.D.
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"I have since come to realize that being between your mentor and his route
to the bathroom is a major career booster."  -- Patrick Naughton

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